What are the excuses for not allowing all that flex can do in flash or vice versa? I think AS3 should be AS3 not Flash’s AS3 or Flex’s AS3. I believe Adobe needs to address this big problem. We need a discrepancy free program language. The web community has become more bias to Flex over the last year with out concern for the developers working in Flash. Example Yahoo’s map API which works just fine in flash’s AS2 now is limited to flex in AS3 though with out any real under standing why.
From an IDE stand point what is the use of providing a IDE the power of AS3 only to limit it’s use? I want to know why Flex can do more then flash. From what I under stand the hole flex API is built off of the components built in flash. I think this bias for one IDE over the other with in the context of AS3 is setting the stage for failure and leaves a negative precedences in our community. I believe adobe needs to merge the two programs in to a single IDE or make a better attempt to bridge their discrepancy.
As a non-Flash, newbie Flex user, I’m not sure what you are talking about. Can you give some specific examples? It sounds like you are saying that AS3 is different in Flash than it is in Flex. Like, you can’t do x+y in Flash but you can in Flex. Is that what you are saying? Or are you saying there are more APIs in Flex? If so, isn’t that just libraries written in AS3?
I work with AS3 in both Flash and Flex and am really unclear as to your meaning as well. I can easily use classes built using the Flash IDE in a Flex app and vice-versa. The only difference being the Flex or Flash component set.
Can you provide a specific example of what you are referring to?
I think the difficulty in integrating Flex into CS3 is that it wraps and hides some of the Flash functionality such as timeline control. Like you said Flex is built off of Flash and in the end its just an AS3 class library.
Hopefully with the Flex 3 SDK going open source it can lead to some robust community solutions to this. I really think, as powerful as Flex is, the integration with Flash that you so crave would be a boon to both let alone the Flash Player platform as a whole.
You could always submit a Feature Request too:
http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform&product=20
I would agree that there has been a shift to Flex development for many AS developers. However, I would say that I have not run into an instance in my development where Actionscript 3 behaves differently in Flash versus Flex. Flex just has the Flex Framework which incorporates many additional classes - but, since the codebase for the Flex framework is open source, you CAN include these in your Flash application. Can you give any examples for problems that you are experiencing?
@ Raymond
Yes, basically the issue is that folks like Yahoo are developing components that extend or implement classes that are part of the Flex framework, and that framework is not built into Flash, so you can’t always just use them in either Flash or Flex. I think what the author was misinformed about is that the Flex components are not simply extensions of the Flash components. For example, the Button class in the Flex framework is NOT the same as a button component in Flash CS3. They are two very different classes, with different properties and capabilities.
Also, the compilers for the two are different, as I understand it, so you couldn’t just import the Flex framework classes into Flash to use them either.
Difference between Flash and Flex is that Flex has custom metadata tags, more enhanced framework which uses those metadata tags (for example [Bindable] tag), etc.
What I believe he is referring to is the following:
none of the classes in :
/Applications/Adobe Flex Builder 3/sdks/3.0.0/frameworks/projects/framework/src/mx
are available in Flash CS3:
~/Library/Application Support/Adobe/Flash CS3/en/Configuration/Classes/FP9
(Sorry for the OS X paths)
Plus Flash CS3 is unable to access the code in a Flex SWC
Personally I will always prefer the freedom of Flash over the rigidity of Flex. Being locked into a Flex Framework and its cooperate looking components frustrates me. If a developer wishes to create an application using Flash and at the same time be able to access the code with in a Flex SWC then doing that should be simple. At the moment I don’t know a way to do this.
Example: With the Yahoo’s AS3 Map source there is use of a UI class that has methods or properties that are only available in the Flex API. With the example of rabbit’s new API, they provide a swc that can only be use in flex so I cant event tell you why there is a discrepancies there since I cant even see the code. But the bottom line is major companies like Yahoo are making it even more difficult for AS3 developers to have a choice of Flash vs Flex and is prof this is a problem with the differences between the two APIs.
i didn’t get it — flash 9 uses AS3, Flex is built on Flash 9 using AS3, how they could be different?
Flex is built on AS3. You can do pretty much anything in AS3 that you can in Flash. Flex is just a framework of AS3 classes that Adobe built. The one difference is in Flex you can write your apps in MXML. But that just gets converted back AS3 classes in the end. You can see the actual classes it generates if you compile with the keep generated classes option. In the end, your app is instantiating and running AS3 classes.
One big problem I see is that there really are two versions of AS3 when you start comparing the AS3 you use in Flex Builder, and the AS3 you use in Flash CS3. Missing metadata tags, other incompatibilities, etc. It’s a huge omission. It’s almost hard to believe both apps were created by the same company.
The other problem I do see, as you mentioned, is the heavy concentration on Flex as opposed to just AS3. On Adobe’s site you can find a huge amount of resources relating to coding in Flex, and lots of resources on doing various things in Flash, but virtually NOTHING on programming in straight AS3 in Flex Builder. Since that’s what I do almost exclusively, I feel rather left out.
@Keith Peters
Sorry to get off track but what is the WP plug-in you use to display code on your site with the plain text option.
First, as both a Flash, AS3 and a Flex developer, I don’t see Flex “taking over” Flash. Certainly there is a focus away from the Flash IDE as a development platform toward Flex, because Flex is the “shiny new thing”. And let’s face it: the Flash IDE totally sucks for class-based, OOP programming when compared to just about any other code editor, such as SEPY, FlashDevelop, UltraEdit, to name a few — it’s only just now, in CS3, up to par with what Dreamweaver used to be.
Flash is a design-oriented IDE with its own set of components (fl.*). Flex is a development-oriented IDE with its own set of components (mx.*) — plus a markup language MXML for the design-impaired
Both are built on ActionScript 3.0, both with different workflows for different users.
Some of the frustration I am hearing in the Flash community seems to stem from the awkwardness of the Flash-Flex workflow. That will be improved with Flex 3, and even more when Thermo comes out. And you can still use Flex Builder to code an ActionScript 3.0 project, but still compile it in Flash; you just can’t use the fl.* package in FB — for now.
And some of that frustration stems from fear, that “flex people are taking over their jobs,” or that “the development community has abandoned them”. Nothing could be farther from the truth. What we are fact seeing are the creation of whole new markets, and job descriptions.
Agencies using heavily branded experiences, some of which use some pretty intense coding such as PV3D, don’t require Flex development, never will. I also see Flex projects trying to do what Flash used to do with ease, and a lot of people are realizing that a) you can’t use Flash for an enterprise, data-enabled, component-driven application, and b) you can’t use Flex for a highly dynamic, small-scale branded web presence.
But you may be able to leverage the best of the two, and create an application that neither Flash nor Flex on their own could do well separately, such as the Smallworld.
But that takes a certain fearlessness to embrace change and make it work for you.
dude,I actually understand exactly what you mean. Most of the issues come from the separate component sets for cs3 & flex, plus the fact that cs3 knows nothing of the mx.* packages. I’ve never tried adding the mx classpath to cs3, so I’m not sure if that would just work.
But I also understand your point about the heavy focus on flex development and lack of focus on cs3 develoment. For a long time it was difficult finding any info on component development in cs3, and even what’s out there now is still pretty sparse.
While I definitely feel that flex does kick some major ass, I hope Adobe (and other developers) don’t start looking at ‘flash’ developers as second-class, or feel like they can leave them behind, I think that would be a huge mistake. There are many, many excellent flash developers out there who still choose not to develop with flex.
@Joeflash
I’m sorry but I must disagree with:
“a) you can’t use Flash for an enterprise, data-enabled, component-driven application, and b) you can’t use Flex for a highly dynamic, small-scale branded web presence.”
I have seen the use of the data-grids and other components in flash many times that could be implemented in a enterprise environment and flex is not subject to complex usages only.
I feel that it’s a matter of “if flash could” vs. “flash cant”
Flash could impalement anything flex has and vise versa but due to adobe forcing the market to divide the flow of work from one to the other it implies that the two could never be just one IDE or that a AS3 developer only works in just one field.
And it that stigma of “Your a designer or Developer only” that causes this bias. I know most people who have been involved with flash since long ago are just as capable of designing as they are developing and don’t want to be forced to pick their IDE for just one over all usage.
Perhaps “can’t” is too strong a word. Could have said “is not meant for”.
If you have ever been on a development team with more than six developers using the Flash IDE as a programming tool, it doesn’t take too long to realize what a nightmare that quickly turns out to be. The only reason people even attempted to develop enterprise applications in Flash back in AS2 is to see if it could be done, because the potential was there for Flash to revolutionize RIA applications. (Flex 1/1.5 is whole other ball of wax, which had its own unique set of frustrations). So I think it is a very fair statement to say that Flash can’t do massively data-enabled applications with very large teams of developers. You also can’t design in Flex. It’s a coding workflow, end of story. Tools for the job.
I am a little pissed off that Adobe didn’t improve the Actions panel in Flash. I am also disappointed that none of the data components made it into Flash CS3. But Flex is so darn powerful in that regard I don’t entirely mind. And just because Flex is taking up the developer capabilities that Flash never had, doesn’t mean you can’t use both.
Adobe didn’t “force the market divide,” as in make flash for animation and flex for coding: developers did, they asked for this. The market asked for it.
A good designer, developer, doesn’t identify themselves according to their tools, they identify themselves by their skills, their passions, and their results. Flash and Flex are just tools, not a self-identity.
Adapt, love what you do, find a way to share that passion and be good at it… or not. Your choice.
@joeflash
I don’t think you understand it all. From what your saying it was the community that asked for the division and that adobes roll only stems from the fact they gave the solution to one IDE vs the other.Is this to say that the two IDE could not be just one IDE?
Is that what the community was really asking for, that the two products do the job of one?. I was “Pissed OFF” too to find that the skipped on a few components in Flash 9 just to have them show up new in flex (”Date chooser, tree list, etc….”).
When the community asked for a better Acton Scripting environment for flash they did not mean make it only for the flex IDE. Why is it that in Flex your classes and constructors are made for you and that your custom action script directory comes up in code hints, but all of this was left out of flash 9? this is not a lack of proper technology that flex can do what flash cant. This is the BIAS that is dividing our community forced by adode! That is Adobe saying “if your a designer your in flash and if your a coder your in flex” the community has no choice but to go along with that, end of story.
To answer you’re question directly… Flex is for doing more than you can do with Flash. Flash CS3 (Flash 9) IDE is for creating animations. Flex Builder is for creating applications.
If you’re an AS3 *developer* and you’re still using the Flash CS3 IDE to create *Flash* applications. You’re using the wrong tool for the job. Learn to use Flex Builder… it’s faster to create Flash/Flex applications with.
If you’re complaint is why can’t you compile a Flex application in Flash 9 IDE… then anyone’s response should be… because Flash 9 uses the “plain” AS3 compiler. Flex has a wrapper around the base as3 compiler for doing code generation for you. When you put a [Bindable] tag in your source… the Flex compiler writes a bunch of code for you when you compile it.
I do agree that it is silly that you can’t compile a Flex application in the Flash IDE. This makes designers/animators forced to run both Flash and Flex to see how there components/skins look inside the flex app. Which is a pain in the @$$.
P.S. Rabbit’s new api will support flash
@ Admin
“Is that what the community was really asking for, that the two products do the job of one?.”
Actually the developer community coming from the java type development background asked for a more traditional way of building swfs. Those types of developers are not interested in timelines when they build an RIA. They just want something familiar like eclipse and have a easy way to visualy lay out the components and be able to edit the whole thing via markup language that can bind to AS3 classes behind it. They want to be able to target the compiler from the command line if they want to. This is what the flex builder/flex sdk solves.
To me what your annoyed with is that Adobe created this flex builder,framework of AS3 classes, and components and didn’t choose to add support for that framework in Flash ide. My question is why would they? The framework was built for devs who want a more traditional dev environment. Yahoo has chosen to utilize that framework to build it’s api, if you want to use it i suggest you start using flex builder or download the flex SDK and use a editor like textmate to write your code. You could also use an external editor and just have your fla file setup with the document class. That is a quick way to get a better editor.
The other thing is contact yahoo directly and ask them to build a straight AS3 api so you can utilize it in the flash ide.
I also recall a post by either mike chambers or mike potter where in their focus groups during a flash ide cycle they found the majority of those users used external editors so they shelved spending resources on overhauling the built in editor. Here is the link when Chambers was asking for community input:
http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/2003/06/02/describe-your-dream-actionscript-editor/
a lot of responses were that they liked external editors and that kind of input created the direction that the flash ide has gone over the last couple of releases.
This Flash vs. Flex debate is funny. I love them both, use them both. Use the tool that suits the task. It’s almost as if some of these Flash developers wish Flex didn’t exist … weird.
Shout out to Keith Peters! Learned alot from you!
I totally agree - see my blog post:
http://joshua.almirun.com/tech/ria/flash/395th-reason-why-adobe-sucks
A big part of the problem with the Yahoo! Maps AS3 API is that Adobe doesn’t let you use class SWCs with Flash CS3. That is a poor design decision, in my opinion, and we now need extra time to build a Flash-only component so we can use pre-compiled code like with a SWC.
One thing to note, though, is that this isn’t an AS3 difference, per se, because the language itself is the same in either Flash or Flex. Instead, it’s a case where Flash CS3’s compiler has some limits that weren’t in place when everyone started using the Flex SDK compiler. Hopefully, the CS4 version will be more powerful.
Josh Tynjala
Yahoo! Flash Platform
I have to say that the author has hit the nail on the head - I completely understand what he is talking about having just recently tried to make the jump from flash to flex.
The lack of interchangeability over components and classes means I am no longer considering flex as an alternative - which is a real pain as I really like some of the newer components!
I would also have to strongly disagree with:
@Joeflash
“a) you can’t use Flash for an enterprise, data-enabled, component-driven application”
Given the freedom of flash coding vs. the rigidity of the flex framework I’d always choose Flash for a serious project (and have created ‘an enterprise, data-enabled, component-driven application’ in Flash, for the record
btw would someone like to recommend an ide for as3 (not just as2)?
@flasher “would someone like to recommend an ide for as3″?
The http://www.flashdevelop.org IDE is great. I use it non stop for my Action Script coding needs.
@Josh Tynjala
So your saying that the UIcomponent used is the same for your flex component as it is for your upcoming flash version?? Even if that is possible, knowing that flash is capable of doing betting graphically why do you think Yahoo went with flex for a Map component that has such strong and heavy graphical usage?
ActionScript was designed for non programmers at one stage. Non programmers who wish to dabble in ActionScript to enhance their animation in Flash seems to have been left out. To learn ActionScript is a herculean task for artists and designers and the futility of learning it is compounded when a newer version of it looms large in the horizon, although it may be a minor change. Until some descrepencies are sorted out quick and fast by Adobe or a simpler version for a realistic use with Flash Animation is created, it is most likely that it is going to destroy Flash. There are many who believe that a powerful program is going to make Flash popular. This is not the case. Is ActionScript in competion with C++ and JAVA? I wish not. We need a program that runs with the USER and FLASH.
Vailixi
when they develop the as3 and all the classes and packages and the hell, they forget that the designers (who really uses flash) dont know oo, uml and others stuffs. im my job, all designers hate as3, they still using as2 for the facilities its have. for me as a developer is a very good language, but for a designer AS3 sucks. I dont use Flex, i dont like Adobe and his monopolies, i (and everybody i know) prefeer when was macromedia flash. i think the as3 is the end of flash for designers, only experience developer and analists can make classes and packages. This is not a job for a ilustrator or a animator.
As an artist, intelligent enought to script my websites and simple interactivity myself in as2, ActionScript 3 is the end of a great erea where programming was fun, simple and accessible to all. Again, the market needs killed the social evolution. Like the rest of the industry, Adobe doesn’t care about human evolution, health and the futur of the revolution the web can be. The only thing that counts is: buisness. So let’s follow the direction Adobe and the whole multimedia community has choose: no more fun. Programmers will keep coding large pages of codes/classes/external .as, all alone in their offices, while artist like me, we will go back to Photoshop. No more mixing of roles, wich is TOO BAD. We are back to the 80 ies. Flash could have been the sparckle for millions of kids to have fun playing with basic code. Instead, Adobe decide (with actionscript 3) to make it simply another Java language with a cool IDE (Eclipse wasN,t enought ?). I just wish actionscript 2 will stay alive for the next 10 years.
@ me and Hermis
ActionScrip 3.0 is the best improvement to Flash since ever… Just because AS 3.0 is now strict doesn’t meant that it’s worse then AS 2.0, quite the opposite, it’s 3 times faster. IMHO, designers are frustrated because AS 3.0 doesn’t apply the same primitive rules as AS 2.0 ; people designing and building web pages with AS 2.0 were used to hacking code together from the tons of tutorials they could find on the net… since AS 3.0, that’s no longer possible, because now, you actually have to understand what you are doing and not only putting pieces of code together. Is Adobe bad for doing this? Definitely not, it’s not their fault that most of the designers are simply not capable of learning AS 3.0 and building things the way they should be built.
By the way, did I mention that I’m a designer too ? Since I started Flash I was mostly focusing on design but since AS 3.0 got out, I had a change of hart and I’m not learning AIR and developing applications in both Flex and the Flash IDE ( but I recently started focusing on Flex because it’s simple a much faster development tool ). I’m quite sure that I’m not the only designer out there who was capable of switching from AS 2.0 to AS 3.0 and I don’t regret making that step.
“I just wish actionscript 2 will stay alive for the next 10 years.”
Don’t worry, it won’t live that long. If you want processing power and maybe build 3D applications then you’ll sooner or later be forced to learn AS 3.0 ; even faster, just take a look at all the job offers, 95% of the companies all over the World are looking for people who are capable of writing code in AS 3.0 , if you can’t keep the pace then that’s your problem, there will come others who can live up to the new standards and technologies.
The people who don’t like Flex is because they don’t have a programming background and they simply can’t understand that there is a beauty in the “flex way” too. A true professional picks his tools so that he can get the most out of any project, even if that means using both Flash and Flex and Photoshop and who knows what. People who can use only one, well, no one said that everyone must be good at everything just PLEASE stop whining…
Use whatever is best for the application and not for you. IMHO, that’s the biggest mistake designers and developers make, they tend to forget that a project is not about “doing it my way” but “doing it the right way”, in a way that will work best no matter the tool.
It’s like choosing Paint over Photoshop… No one said that you can’t produce 2 identical pictures ( one drawn in Photoshop and the other in Paint ), it’s possible, just that Photoshop will do the job in 10 mins and you’ll produce the same thing in Paint in 10 days… so which one is best ? The answer is BOTH, just that one gets your job done 100 times faster then the other… Same thing applies to Flash and Flex.
Please stop whining and instead, start learning.
Thanks.
“I had a change of hart and I’m not learning AIR and developing applications in both Flex and the Flash IDE”
– it’s “I’m NOW learning AIR and developing…” I wanted to point this out because it’s confusing with the “not” instead of “now”.
Sorry for the bad typo, I’m really tired but felt the need to reply.
wait just a second! Are some of you saying that because you don’t understand AS3 means that it’s a bad thing? And you call your self’s artists? Talk about closed minded.
I want to get this out there:
1: I love Flex.
2: I love AS3.
3: I love AIR.
4: I love Flash
5: I hate segregation
Now if you haven’t figured it out yet this hole topic is about how the AS3 community is being segregated due to the lack of proper consistency for the IDE and frame work. Plus the Flex community is also becoming more and more discriminating of the Flash IDE. Now most will not come out and say it but it’s true.
- Josh Chernoff
IMHO, flex developers hate the IDE guys because most of them can’t understand the IDE timeline and they are simple not comfortable with it; the IDE guys hate the Flex people because they can’t seem to get stuff working without actually seeing what they are doing and moving stuff with their mouse and drawing with the pen tool or who knows what… It’s a childish fight between people who focus more on what they hate doing instead of what they love doing…
I’m sticking to my affirmation: “Use whatever is best for the application and not the tool that you feel comfortable with.” ; The whole Flex vs IDE stuff exists because no one cares about the actual application, if both can do the same thing then the only thing that will decide which tool is best is the “speed factor”, the key to success is to create the required application or whatever ASAP and end up with a great quality product in a really short period of time ( no matter the tool that was used ). If people would focus more on the actual application ( the problem that must be solved ) then on their personal likes or dislikes then both Flex and IDE developers could all “live in peace and harmony”.
@ admin,
I totally agree on your first 4 points, as for the fifth point… well, personally, I’d simply ignore the people who are talking about segregation and it’s disadvantages… Since I feel comfortable with both Flex and IDE then why would I have a problem with segregation ? The only thing that counts is that I can get the job done, no matter the tools I must use. ( speaking in general )
- Biro Barna
I would like to say a few things here. First of all AS3 has a completely different feel to AS2. They are different, this is not bad, what is bad is that each time Adobe brings forth a new version it is like learning a new program. Productivity and creativity goes down the drain. Just when you get used to it you are slammed with another version of AS. As a developer I would like to see consistency so that I can build on my skills, not pull down and rebuild from scratch. There is simply no time in this world of deadlines and targets for rebuilding skills. As a person who is interested in what the AS community feels, I can see that some folks are looking elsewhere for refuge from this constant revamping. I would hate to see Flash loosing its grounds to Microsoft Expressions, which is gaining in popularity in recent times. Unless Adobe recognises this problem, it would be worthwhile to ponder to resell Flash back to Macromedia if they still exist. Recognising that Microsoft Expressions is a real threat to Flash will see Adobe change their stance.
ooooo! damn son, the last thing that was said is big and deep yo…run tell that shit every where so these dumb ass adobe people can stop f..king with s..hit…buying good s…hit and turn them into garbage. and that flex and flash stuff just drive me crazy…to me I have to use both of them to get things done my way…flash and flex don’t even get along. so I say it it’s like that f…uck them both, I’m looking for better way to meet my dead lines and web goes on!